Posted by Benjamin on: 07.18.2007 /
The Nation (http://www.thenation.com/doc/20070730/hedges) recently published an article in which they interviewed 50 Iraq war veterans about their experience and what things are really like over there. This stuff struck me as obvious, but I still had to force myself to wade through the 12 pages of horrifying description. It occured to me that this used to not strike me as obvious–I used to think that war actually works well and is a great idea.
In Iraq, Specialist Middleton said, “a lot of guys really supported that whole concept that, you know, if they don’t speak English and they have darker skin, they’re not as human as us, so we can do what we want.”
…
Those few veterans who said they did try to reach out to Iraqis encountered fierce hostility from those in their units.
…Probes into roadblock killings were mere formalities, a few veterans said. “Even after a thorough investigation, there’s not much that could be done,” said Specialist Reppenhagen. “It’s just the nature of the situation you’re in. That’s what’s wrong. It’s not individual atrocity. It’s the fact that the entire war is an atrocity.”
…
“Just the carnage, all the blown-up civilians, blown-up bodies that I saw,” Specialist Englehart said. “I just–I started thinking, like, Why? What was this for?”
“It just gets frustrating,” Specialist Reppenhagen said. “Instead of blaming your own command for putting you there in that situation, you start blaming the Iraqi people…. So it’s a constant psychological battle to try to, you know, keep–to stay humane.”
“I felt like there was this enormous reduction in my compassion for people,” said Sergeant Flanders. “The only thing that wound up mattering is myself and the guys that I was with. And everybody else be damned.”
Many of these veterans returned home deeply disturbed by the disparity between the reality of the [Iraq] war and the way it is portrayed by the US government and American media. The war the vets described is a dark and even depraved enterprise, one that bears a powerful resemblance to other misguided and brutal colonial wars and occupations, from the French occupation of Algeria to the American war in Vietnam and the Israeli occupation of Palestinian territory.
(Quotes from ‘The Other War’, The Nation - http://www.thenation.com/doc/20070730/hedges)
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Comment by: Rachel
1 07/18/07 10:56 AM | Comment Link |That’s a tough question, Benjamin. My initial response would be an unequivocal “YES!” As Jesus said, “Those who live by the sword will die by the sword.”
But then I think about World War II which really did end with a peaceful resolution. People were liberated and nations were rebuilt and Japan and Germany have never rearmed. So I don’t know.
Maybe usually but not always?
Comment by: Aubrie
2 07/18/07 11:24 AM | Comment Link |I have a friend who is in the army & spent a year in Iraq. He was in charge of the convoy’s. Fun job. They drove very fast, hit and rammed anything coming at them, and shot and bombed anything in site. He said there were so many times that a bomb was coming straight for his truck and somehow just turned alittle and didn’t hit him. Ummm, God maybe?
So now he comes home. Well, gues what he wants to do every time he gets into his car? Drive 100mph and ram everything in site. That was the only way he survived, he just went into auto mode. So he had to change the way he thinks. So even though he didn’t act violent when he got home, it was in his mind. How many vets have been so messed up from all the violence they have seen? And how has it affected their lives in other ways. Maybe they were violent in other ways than we would think.
It’s just too much. No more supposed bad guys with guns and bombs. When Jesus and the disciples were traveling and sharing the gospel and found out that a town wasn’t friendly they didn’t bomb them. They went quietly on by.
Comment by: David H
3 07/18/07 7:29 PM | Comment Link |While the major powers came to a somewhat peaceful resolve, a host of other conflicts sprang out of decisions made before and after WWII. The conflict between mainland China and Taiwan wasn’t caused by WWII, but support of the communist forces during the war helped propel that civil war after the end of WWII.
Likewise, the conflicts between Bosnia and its sister states in Yugoslavia owes some (but certainly not all) credit to the outcome of WWII.
But my sadly favorite example of how violence was perpetuated following WWII is in Vietnam. Ho Chi Minh and his followers formed a Vietnamese resistance against the Japanese during WWII. They were promised a free country when the allies were victorious. The victors in WWII did not keep that promise and the French came back into control once the Japanese were gone. That double-dealing was due in large part to debts exchanged during WWII and led directly to the Vietnam war.
There are plenty of other examples, including that WWII likely wouldn’t have occurred but for the rape of Germany at the end of WWI. Of course the economic violence between those two wars also helped foster both the German and Japanese war machines. But that is another story.
It would be interesting to know if there had ever been a major war in the history of the world that did not lead to another war.
Comment by: Janice
4 07/19/07 12:01 PM | Comment Link |I am tempted to say that violence begets violence as a blanket statement, except for the fact that I am uncomfortable with blanket statements by and large. There may also be two different considerations - one individual and the other ‘corporate’ or ‘national’.
Perhaps when its corporate there is a general sense for me that its easier to answer ‘yes’ but on the individual level I think that a lot depends on one’s inner personality characteristics and their god-ward orientation.
Take for instance the gentleman that someone wrote about who put in for discharge and then wanted to go back with a camera. Did the violence that he saw beget more violence? Doesn’t seem that way.
(I am reading a parenting book and it is interesting how much of the principles being set forth can be applied on a larger scale, the ‘god-ward’ orientation is one of them that has me thinking about how people respond to others and the world around them when looked at from the perspective of how they view God. )
Janice
Comment by: David H
5 07/19/07 1:23 PM | Comment Link |Seeing violence may not lead to more violence. As someone who works in photojournalism, I hope just the opposite is the case. However, committing violence is likely to be a whole ‘nother kettle of fish. If I commit violence, it is somewhat out of my hands as to whether that perpetuates violence. At that point it becomes up tho those against whom I committed the violence. How will they respond? Will they forgive or will they want revenge against something — even if they can’t get to me.
However, from the standpoint of children all the evidence is that if they see violence — especially by their parents (in the form of hurting others, themselves or even via bigotry and theft) then those children will have a hard time escaping the cycle of violence.
Comment by: Janice
6 07/19/07 1:35 PM | Comment Link |Yes, hard time, but not impossible. It would be interesting to see what factors contribute most often to the cycle being broken. And if the violence is perpetuated in non-traditional ways or if its really eradicated.
While it may be a whole different kettle of fish to be involved in violence hands on - either receiving or committing acts of, I still personally can’t get behind blanket statements. I think it doesn’t always beget more violence; so much is up to the individual. How many victims of concentration camps went on to be abusers vs those who didn’t? anyone have stats on that sort of thing? And again, is it different if its acts against individuals as opposed to acts against a nation? Is the way people respond different?
Comment by: David H
7 07/19/07 7:15 PM | Comment Link |Maybe violence doesn’t always lead to more violence. Jesus accepted the violence done to him and told his followers to do likewise. He essentially said they should respond to such things with forgiveness and love.
But then only a couple of hundred years later some Christians began to espouse anti-semitism and the belief that Jews killed Jesus became part of the excuse for how badly Jews were treated in Europe right up until WWII.
Speaking in absolutes is always wrong ;-). But violence is like dropping a bomb into a lake. The bigger the bomb, the more likely the obvious effect. But even a small bomb will make ripples. There is no telling where those ripples will go. It is hard to know, sometimes, the affect they will have. And it is very difficult to gage the reaction.
Janice asked:
It would seem that if the answer is that any went on to be abusers, murderers, rapists, or violent criminals of any kind, then we have an answer of sorts to the question about whether violence always leads to more violence. A single act of violence, from one individual to another, seldom has only one victim. And anyone who takes the harm done by the single act as the impetus to harm another, is perpetuating the cycle.
I’m not sure how anyone could make sure that violence doesn’t always lead to more violence. But I will accept that maybe it doesn’t.
Comment by: Benjamin
8 07/20/07 5:56 AM | Comment Link |David–thankyou. the image works well for me.
Janice
yeah–I kind of agree with you about blanket statements. I mean “always” is one of those huge words which I can’t really wrap my head around. I think I was talking more about war than about personal violence. It just strikes me as absurd to imagine that we can accomplish a “better peace” through violent means
Comment by: Benjamin
9 07/20/07 5:59 AM | Comment Link |Aubrie,
I’m sorry to hear how difficult it has been for your friend.
It seems to me that as a nation we haven’t put much thought or foresight into the long term ramifications, for oursevles, our friends, neighbors, brothers, sisters, … etc., of initiating and continuing war around the world.
Comment by: james warren
10 07/29/07 4:15 AM | Comment Link |Walter Wink is a theologian who writes eloquently on nonviolence. He often talks about “the myth of redemptive violence.”
That myth is pretty persuasive and so it is hard to identify it and even harder to escape it. There are exceptions, of course, but it tends to take on a life of its own.
Awareness and education maybe? I pray that I am doing close to the best that I can.
Comment by: Rachel
11 07/29/07 8:11 AM | Comment Link |Welcome to Justice and Compassion, James! I really must read Walter Wink’s books on the Powers. I frequently hear his work recommended and he sounds brilliant.