Posted by Benjamin on: 01.31.2008 /
So here’s my question: Is torturing people inherently necessary in order to maintain the enormous gap between our relative wealth and the relative poverty of the poorest one billion people? Yesterday U.S. attorney general Michael Mukasey made it pretty much official U.S. policy (as if it weren’t already).
WASHINGTON — Attorney General Michael B. Mukasey said Wednesday that while he would consider it torture if he underwent the harsh Central Intelligence Agency interrogation technique known as waterboarding, the practice was not necessarily illegal, and he would not rule out its use in the future.
Under sometimes angry questioning from Democrats at his first oversight hearing before the Senate Judiciary Committee, Mr. Mukasey found himself caught in the debate that nearly derailed his confirmation last fall: whether waterboarding is torture.
“Would waterboarding be torture if it were done to you?” asked Senator Edward M. Kennedy, Democrat of Massachusetts, glowering at Mr. Mukasey.
“I would feel that it was,” Mr. Mukasey acknowledged in the low monotone that he uses in virtually all public settings.
But the attorney general, a retired federal judge, would not be drawn into a larger conversation with Senator Kennedy or other Democrats over whether waterboarding might amount to torture if it was carried out on others, including American citizens held abroad.
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Comment by: joe
1 01/31/08 3:33 AM | Comment Link |B - I’m not sure your title makes sense. Shouldn’t it be ‘is torture inevitable’ or ‘is torture inherent in our global system’?
But basically, I think the answer is yes. In some ways our politicians are focusing concern onto these actions which ignores that fact that our lifestyles require poverty and torture of mind and spirit on a daily basis.
Waterboarding is bad, but hopefully not something which is frequent. Grinding poverty affects billions of people.
Comment by: Elaine
2 01/31/08 6:55 PM | Comment Link |Benjamin - I heard part of this on the news yesterday.
No - I don’t think torture is inevitable - but under the wrong conditions, it happens.
Could Mukasey really believe physical torture is not really torture unless you perceive it that way?
That was a rhetorical question.
How sad to think he and others seem to have intellectualized torture to be only a “perceptions” thing. Is that why they call bombing innocent children and civilians - collaterol damage?
While I might perceive this as a cold day at 32 degrees - you may not.
However, if I hold your head under water as your lungs fill up and every part of your being knows you are drowning - is that your perception or reality?
Comment by: Benjamin
3 01/31/08 10:01 PM | Comment Link |Joe,
Yeah–I hear you about the title. I kind of liked the way it didn’t make sense–like–”inherent to what–the human condition?” It makes me do a mental double take, which I rather like (I know, I’m just weird.)
Aren’t they sort of linked? I mean willingness to be filthy rich while others starve, and willingness to torture others to maintain our power. They seem to be of a kind.
Elaine
I actually think people like Mukasey and Bush *are* able to believe in the strange and horrible worlds they postulate. I know because I used to be there, and believe in some of those things. My perception is better or more worthy than the perception of others. Torture of me is worse than torture of others, because I am right, and they are wrong–I am human, and they are subhuman. etc.
Comment by: Elaine
4 02/1/08 7:26 AM | Comment Link |when you say
would you tell me more about how you moved away from that position/belief?
In another life (like 20 years ago) - I did some diversity training and understand that if we can de-humanize our enemies - it makes it easier to justify our violent acts against them.
So what moved you away from those beliefs?
If that is too personal - you may simple say “pass”. Thanks.
Comment by: Benjamin
5 02/1/08 8:33 PM | Comment Link |Elaine,
You always ask such great questions!
Wow–how did I move away from the positions/beliefs I used to have? That is such a long complex story with so many elements, I could talk your ears off (write your eyes off?)
So … things that happened to me. I got married. That’s the biggest thing, I guess. There were two elements to that changing me. The stronger one was this–I got married, and my self-destructive and other-destructive thought patterns and behaviors suddenly started hurting someone I loved–my wife. I’d not loved someone enough, previously, to care so much that I was hurting them. And I’d not been in a relationship previously where I could (and … in a sense *had to*, to maintain the valuable relationship) be totally honest and not have them turn away or turn against, but rather turn towards, even in their pain. So my wife just honestly expressed how it was hurting her when I behaved in those ways. And that, for the first time ever, made me actually *want* to change badly enough that I actually took the steps needed to implement change.
And the other side of that is that my lovely wife is from this amazing family which is very very different from the family I grew up in–they have a much more others oriented humble approach to the world. So hanging around them started to get to me as well. Megs’ two sisters would argue passionately for their ideas, while listening well to mine. That tweaked my worldview in a big way.
And then there was the two years spent visiting some … 20 or so countries as part of a missions ship with a crew from 40 different countries. That *seriously* tweaked the way I viewed the world. It helped get me out of my Americo-centric, right wing evangelical centric … etc. framework long enough for me to see it from the outside, and … dislike it.
There was an astoudingly kewl class I took at Seattle Central Community College which was an interdisiplinary 18 credit class on Southeast Asia. We met 4 hours a day 4 days a week for 10 weeks, and we got *huge* exposure to some of the crap that we, the U.S. did down there, it’s ongoing repercussions in Laos, Cambodia, Vietnam–the international sex trade, etc etc. I got *super* depressed about halfway through that course because it was just *so* overwhelmiung. But I am forever profoundly grateful for it. Tracy Lai was one of the profs and I really connected with her and … it really changed the way I thought about a lot of things.
So there is a very brief overview of some of the bigger things that have taken place.
Comment by: Seren
6 02/2/08 4:43 AM | Comment Link |There was a wonderful article published a few years ago in something like the London Review of Books. It was written by a South American author, who used the torture story in Brothers Karamatzov by Dostoevsky (apologies for spelling) to explore just what we are willing to base our world on. That is such a vague reference that it’s probably just irritating.
Comment by: Benjamin
7 02/2/08 10:21 PM | Comment Link |Seren,
I’d love to read the article you reference. I find librarians are amazing at this sort of thing–finding an article based on the very vaguest of references. Next time you’re in a library, perhaps grab the reference librarian and see if they can help you find it, and let us know?
Comment by: Elaine
8 02/3/08 8:53 AM | Comment Link |thanks for responding to my question, Benjamin. I appreciate your willingness to risk disclosing on this public forum.
How blessed your are to have a partner like Meg and her family. I can see how life and relationships are calling out the best in you.
From my experience, being in an affirming relationship/community can help our true selves be revealed.
Watching children come into this world all perfect and open to the world…only to see bits and pieces of themselves go into hiding as the world harms them. How can I be a safe person for others?
My dream is that someday we will not see Asian, African, Indian, Caucasian, Mexican, etc….just human beings.
Once I see your humanity - can I ever return to torture?
I do wonder how those who torture others reconcile this on a spiritual - psychological level. How do you wall that off from the rest of your life?
Those who order the torture - are so far removed from the act - it becomes only “perception”.
What is my part in allowing this to happen in my life time? Is it so simple as electing a new president? I don’t know.
Comment by: Martin Gugino
9 02/7/08 12:53 AM | Comment Link |Benjamin - nice to hear of your experiences. It seems that as long as we are willing to kill people, we will be willing to torture people. What I would like to see is that all torture be public, and only one person at a time. Maybe have a National Torture Chamber. Would that increase the amount of torture? Maybe so if there were no other controls.
Comment by: Rachel
10 02/7/08 8:19 PM | Comment Link |Martin, I think that all executions in this country should be public too.
Comment by: Benjamin
11 02/8/08 12:37 AM | Comment Link |National Torture Chamber.
Welcome to the U.S.A.
20 civilians violently killed in Iraq today.
2 directly by U.S. forces.
All by the forces unleashed by the U.S. invasion and ongoing occupation.
I have finally reached the conclusion, right now, that the geographical escape option is not going to rid me of the culpability. Fuck.