Posted by Benjamin on: 04.02.2008 /
We find ourselves stuck in a hopeless paradigm, where it feels necessary to empathise with the sensibilities of the aggressor so as not to sound “unpatriotic”, while remaining blind to the untold anguish of the victims. Some actually feel the need to go so far as to blame the Iraqis for their own misfortune
From Ramzy (Warning: Graphic photos of Iraq War Violence)
I never noticed this analogy before. But Ramzy, in describing something about America, has also managed to describe something about abusive family systems, where the perpetrator is protected and sympathized with, and we try to ignore the state of the victim (for terror, I suppose, of having to acknowledge our own victimization).
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Comment by: Herb
1 04/2/08 7:37 PM | Comment Link |Who is we?
Comment by: benjamin ady
2 04/2/08 9:58 PM | Comment Link |Herb
That’s a great question. Who do you suppose Ramzy meant by “we” in the quote?
And even more interestingly–who do *you* mean when you say “we”?
My own “we” still, alas, tends to encompass mostly those who I consider to be most like myself. I guess I’m in an ongoing very slow process of attempting to expand it to include, ideally, all humans.
Comment by: Herb
3 04/3/08 7:23 PM | Comment Link |This is not a very good answer but I believe I’m older than you and I still don’t know who “I” mean when I say “we”. I don’t really know who I mean when I say “I”. The more I think I know, the more I don’t know. I suppose Ramzy meant this country or our government as “we”. This place is pretty diverse so it’s hard for me to say “we” on issues and I waffle around a lot of issues that he seens sure about. He seems very negative and sometimes I become cynical and negative responding to that stuff. His post makes me think that he thinks “we” collectively, absolutely, suck in every way and if nuking ourselves wouldn’t hurt the environment, then that’s what we should probably do. Seriously, that’s how he sounds to me.
Comment by: benjamin ady
4 04/3/08 8:12 PM | Comment Link |Smile =). I’m still working on the “I” too, actually.
Ditto that.
Wow. That seems like a bit of an extrapolation to me. I wonder why you sense annihilating self hatred in his words? Or perhaps more interestingly, I wonder why you hear him that way and I don’t?
Your words provoked in me the remebrance that to focus intensely on the downfalls and evils of my “we” is perhaps as unhealthy, in the long term, as focusing intensely on the downfalls and evils of my “I”. Not because of the focus on the evil per se so much as because of the focus on *self*.
Although … Ramzy, methinks, has got nothing on some of the prophets in the Old Testament of the Christian Bible–prophets who searing words towards the “we” were mostly ignored in the Christian tradition in which I grew up.
Comment by: David H
5 04/4/08 12:38 AM | Comment Link |Ramzy is obviously a partisan voice. He is Palestinian and, if you read the entire post at his site, lays much of the blame for the invasion of Iraq on Israel’s desire for regional security. His “we” is at times the Israeli government, the US government, the media, current presidential candidates, and the unthinking masses of American people. He may be correct that there may be blame to pass among them all. However, his we includes no ‘I’ as far as I can tell. His we includes no personal responsibility for him. From reading more of his posts, it seems far more likely he meant ‘you’ rather than ‘we.’
That is unfortunate for two reasons. First, he has some valid points to make about several things — propaganda masquerading as media (often because the media is simply clueless) being just one — but some will find those easier to ignore because, secondly, there is no real we for him. He does not appear to accept any personal or corporate Palestinian responsibility for the ongoing mess in the Middle East. Maybe they didn’t start the problems, but Palestinian leadership has done very little to end them.
But for me the most telling bit from his post — and the part that cries out for justice and compassion — was this:
From the perspective of a follower of Christ those numbers are unconscionable even if you throw out the 1 million-plus dead. There is precious little being said by our government or that of Israel regarding the anguish of the Iraqi victims of this conflict. You will find little about it in the mainstream US media. The presidential candidates, when they discuss their plans for this conflict, say very little about how to make life better for the average Iraqi. And what of the American people? Do they talk in coffee shops or church meetings about the Iraqi children who are starving, uneducated, living in constant fear, being forced from their homes, or facing abuse or injury or death? Does the talk of the average American, when it comes to opinions on future policy in Iraq, focus on the needs of the helpless innocents there or our own fears/ hatreds/ desires?
But most personal for me is the question of where American Christians stand on this subject. All the rest can be explained away as “the ways of the world.” But the followers of Jesus are commanded to come down on the side of those who are hungry, hurt, and homeless; they are told that providing for the least of these is the same as taking care of Christ himself. I am appalled and sickened that many “Christian” voices voice first the American concerns for personal security, political solutions, and the responsibility of those people to solve their own problems.
I don’t want to be overly negative. I don’t want to play the blame game or value the life of one person over another. There are plenty of others for those tasks. I just wish that those in this country who claim to be Christians would act a bit more consistently like Jesus. That we includes me.
Comment by: Herb
6 04/4/08 6:12 PM | Comment Link |Well, I think it’s a little natural to focus on our own fears/hatreds/and desires.Especially fears. I certainly have mine. “Appalled about voicing first the American concerns for personal security.” Methinks that very statement can only come from someone who is probably very secure and knows it. The fact that we are sitting here idly waxing philosophically on personal computers means we are probably more secure than we should be and how would it feel if we weren’t secure enough for that? Would we be more like Jesus? Hmmmm.
The “average American” in coffee shops. Who are they? I’m an ecumenical guitar player. In the last week I played on a worship team at a mostly white megachurch, a Catholic Lifeteen mass, a Catholic Spanish mass with around 1,000 latino’s, many of them farm workers, some illegal, some poor and some not, (my wife is latina and she says there is no such word as Hispanics and I don’t believe her), the local rescue mission, the county jail and a huge weekly meal,complete with music :o), for street people put on by a local street ministry of all denominations but mostly conservative evangelicals. All of these places are within 2 miles of each other in the small city of Eugene which is not even considered diverse.
Which ones are average Americans? Which church has the “average American” and what are they talking about in coffee shops? I hope I’m not coming across as grumpy. I’ve been told I do sometimes. I just cannot and have never been able to see things in concrete, black and white terms of “this is the way it should be”, or “This is Iraq”, or “America is this way.” Nothing is what it seems.
Comment by: David H
7 04/4/08 10:10 PM | Comment Link |It is natural, but is it Christ-like?
Forget about average, Herb. You hang out with a diverse group of people. Many who are seemingly people of faith. What sense do you get from them about what is happening to the people of Iraq? Do they feel it is better for us to be fighting there than face the prospect of fighting here? Do they think it is good that hundreds of thousands of children are starving, being killed or being driven from their homes? Or do they feel it preferable that should happen somewhere else rather than face the prospect of such a thing happening here? Do they think of such things in human terms — their daughters rather than mine — or just in terms of events? More to the point: how do you, Herb, answer those questions?
I have fears, a long boring litany of them. One of the big ones is the attractiveness of security, complacency, and the little faith that such things engender. Balanced against that is the fear of what it might cost for things to be else-wise. I don’t want my daughters to pay the ultimate price for the insecurity that would purify my faith. But how can I value the life of one child more than another for anything other than selfish, fearful reasons? I can love mine more because they are mine. But if I believe in a God who sent Jesus, then he/she/it can’t be that way.
I see so much gray these days. The us or them/ good or bad that allows some to accept choices about who deserves to live or who deserves to suffer requires a black and white mentality I can’t muster. I think Jesus would want all of the daughters to be safe, happy and loved. Maybe he would want the same for the sons as well. I may not know how to make that happen. But perhaps it begins with accepting some risk to my physical security.
What did Jesus risk by allowing himself to be tortured and crucified? He was raised after three days. What do his followers risk by putting love ahead of themselves? Some have said that the worst that can be threatened is resurrection. Perhaps if I could live more like that I would be more like Jesus.
There is no reason to expect that of so-called non-believers. This life, this land, these things are all that they have. Still they often put the faithful to shame with self-sacrifice. Yet it is the professed followers of Jesus who claim they owe allegiance to something bigger, better and beyond the things of this earth. Now if they (me included) would all really walk that talk. I am only appalled that “Christians” proudly profess national concerns for personal security even though that makes it impossible to love their neighbors as themselves.
It is natural for me to care for my own skin and the skin of those closest to me. I don’t flail myself for putting that natural concern ahead of where my spirit seems to lead me. But I try not to accept that natural focus as the way things should be. I am not much like Jesus, but I know what he told me to do.
So I admit my fears, hatreds, and selfish desires as failings even if I can’t put them away. I say what I think would be better and try to be forthright (with others and myself) when I don’t fully follow those things. And I forgive myself for such weakness just as I know Jesus would do while trying not to simply accept that is the way I should be.
I hope that is not all just idly waxing myself;-). But it would seem to be much more so if I said and did nothing at all.
Comment by: Herb
8 04/6/08 10:39 PM | Comment Link |I hear you on all of that. I’m appalled by the war and all of the consequences. I don’t know what to do about it. Coffee shop conversation won’t do it. Voting might and I’ll do that. But the battle that Christians are called to fight are many and varied. I feel helpless about that stuff over there. There is plenty for me as a Christian to do in my own back yard (figuratively) and I feel like I do make a difference. I just don’t think that we should categorize Christians in general as doing nothing. When it comes to ministering the homeless and working to treat addictions etc. which is what God has called me to do, I find many Christians out there doing it. I see a lot of them working many many hours after their own jobs are done. They’re out there when they are tired, when they don’t feel like it, when it’s dirty and smelly and unpleasant and knowing they will get sick from all of the contagious stuff going around. Catholics, Evangelicals, Pentecostals, Mainstream Protestants, a lot of people are out there. Years ago, Christians were the largest providers of social services in this country and I see that returning or at least it seems to be. I see teenagers showing up to work at soup kitchens. Maybe it isn’t real evident because after all we as Christians are by biblical instruction not to call attention to ourselves over the work we do. Are many Christians misguided or too caught up in nationalism and draping the American flag around their faith? Of course they are. I’m appalled when I walk into a church and see an American flag in the sanctuary. I’m appalled that many of them apparently don’t see the carnage of children in Iraq in the same light as if it were happening here. At the same time, I’ve seen some of the same people who appear guilty of that stuff practically give the shirt off of their back to someone in need with no strings attached. Anyway, I don’t even remember what this conversation started out as but it’s interesting.
Comment by: Benjamin
9 04/7/08 12:18 AM | Comment Link |Indeed! Herb, David–I could read you two all day. Thank you for engaging!