The “Polygamist Ranch” and “God Bless the Child”

25 Responses to "The “Polygamist Ranch” and “God Bless the Child”"

• Comment by: luna

  1 04/16/08 8:41 AM | Comment Link |

  Pardon, are you condoning child rape in Texas? because that is what happens there. not polygamy. it is child rape. please be clear and state your aims on this site.

  thank you. luna

• Comment by: benjamin ady

  2 04/16/08 1:43 PM | Comment Link |

  luna,

  thank you for asking for clarification!

  I am *not* condoning child rape in Texas, or anywhere else for that matter.

  In fact, just to be perfectly clear, I am altogether adamantly against child rape–I think it’s a horrible crime that leaves very serious scars which a victim has to deal with for the rest of their life.

  In fact, if anyone is aware of a situation where they think that there might be sexual abuse going on, I would encourage them to contact local authorities. Also there’s a really kewl campaign called Stop It Now which has some great ideas about how to stop and prevent sexual abuse of children, as well as how to help both victims and perpetrators.

• Comment by: Randy

  3 04/16/08 1:48 PM | Comment Link |

  Luna,

  I think you’re quite aware that Benjamin is not condoning child rape here. Please read the post again and see if you can offer some opinion regarding the questions posed.

  I’d like to address one of them:
  
  

  Isn’t it true that the children’s risk of lots of nasty things goes way up when they are placed into the foster care system?

  I don’t think that’s necessarily true, and perhaps less true than ever for these particular children. Most foster parents/families are quite kind and compassionate and healthy. It’s always, even in the best cases, second best to living with the birth parents, but the reason that we place children in foster care (or other protective custody) is precisely because the first best scenario is not a good one at the moment.

  I know that there are some really bad foster care situations out there…I’ve heard the stories. But I’m also aware that these are, as is often the case when it comes to media representation, more the exception than the rule. These abused children in Texas would be far better off, imho, almost anywhere but in the care of their equally abused mothers right now. Once these women get to a place of well being, they should have custody restored to them. In the meantime I am sure they will be able to visit with their children…even if it means under supervision.

  My hope is that the mothers get as much help as the children in this situation. It’s really a tragic and sad and somewhat unbelievable travesty.

• Comment by: Daniel

  4 04/16/08 5:02 PM | Comment Link |

  Travesty is putting it mild.

  I donot condone child rape or abuse in any form. But, I really do not think that an already over loaded TX CPS is going to significantly help these children get over the trauma of the last week or of any abuse they had previously.

  This reminds me of Waco and other tragic government fiascoes of the past. I am sorry but my faith in “big brother’s help” is severely shaken and this has not helped. I really have trouble believing this was the best way to proceed. Also, it seems like a vendetta against an unpopular religious group. I doubt a similar raid would take place in an Africanamerican, Muslim, or gay sceneraio.

  I am quite concerned for the children, the parents innocent and guilty, and for all of us.

• Comment by: Staci

  5 04/16/08 6:10 PM | Comment Link |

  I don’t know the statistics on foster care, but I do know that those who live with sexual abuse are more likely to become abusers themselves. People do have choices, but we are not all on an even playing field when we have to make choices. A very wise and compassionate person I know once told me that sometimes it is necessary to give people what they need rather than what they deserve. Not easy to do, but in the long run the results are better for everyone.

  From a practical standpoint, I agree with Daniel that I don’t know how TX will find placement for these children when they are already overloaded. I was thinking of a non-profit organization (NGO) I worked with several years ago for women with alcohol and/or drug addictions where they were allowed to have a child with them in the inpatient program. Program completion rates were quite good and included parenting classes as well. I’ve been wondering if something along those lines could be implemented to allow children to be in a safe environment, women to recover from abuses, and families to heal. Perhaps a Mormon church that does not follow the sect practices that are illegal would be willing to sponsor such a thing. Families might feel a bit more confortable if they share some core beliefs rather than feeling as “on display” as they must feel right now. Not having a lot of experience with this particular religion I don’t know if that is possible…

• Comment by: toughen up

  6 04/16/08 6:32 PM | Comment Link |

  Taking the men away would have made more sense. But the financial incentive to remove children will bring bou coup bucks to the state and county for each child taken. Placing the children in foster care will result in many of these children being physically abused, sexually abused, exposed to things as bad as or worse than what they experienced at home, and of course many will end up on psychotropic medications to dull the pain of separation from their biological families. That said, I don’t know which is worse - the polygamist cult or child protective services. One thing that is certain is that these children are damned unless the state can come up with an innovative concept for dealing with this situation. Again, I reiterate, the best solution in this case would be to remove the men and let the women and children return home together. No one size fits all legal process is going to cure this situation. If we are genuinely concerned about protecting the best interests of the children we won’t let CPS take its usual haphazard self-serving approach here.

• Comment by: Cal

  7 04/16/08 6:55 PM | Comment Link |

  Why all of the compound, if there was only one complaint from one child? Wouldn’t an investigation been the normal approach if this was an apartment complex. I think the Texas authorities bit off more than they were prepared to chew.

• Comment by: A real mother

  8 04/16/08 7:00 PM | Comment Link |

  What needed to happen is what happened. If these mothers are so wonderful and deserve their children then they would have protected them period. Child rape happened, even if it was under the disguise of spiritual marriage or polygamy or religous beliefs. I am a foster parent and I can assure you that each child brought by CPS to my care needed removed. They came from homes where the mothers were meth users and physco from the drugs, neglected physically, so dirty it took hours of soaking in a tub to get the crust of scum off a little toddlers head, full of lice, so hungry and used to being hungry that they hoarded food and water, and those were the fortunate ones that were not sexually abused! I have nurtured these children and protected them to the very best of my abilities. CPS if anything leaves children at risk and returns them too easily to these parents. There is no excuse for child abuse-especially if the abuser is a parent! Wake up, calling someone a mother does not make them one. Any woman who would let their young child be married to an old man is just as guilty as the old man having sex with the child. I would have fought and clawed to the death if that is what it took to save my child. Any mother who would let their young sons be sent away to make sure there were enough young girls unmarried for the old men is not a real mother.She should have been on the same bus with her son protecting him while he was still young and needed protection. Yes there are some bad foster homes, but these children have more of a chance away from those women pretending to be mothers than they do staying with them. In this case it took two to rape the child, the mother who condoned and facilitate it and the man who committed the rape. In a perfect world we wouldn’t need big brother to take care of our children, but sadly in some cases we do. This is no different than CPS taking children from homes where they are sexually abused and the mother knows but doesn’t stop it.

• Comment by: Cal

  9 04/16/08 7:31 PM | Comment Link |

  I agree that, when I child looks and is treated the way you have described, they need to be removed. But none a that describes any of these children at the compound. No crack, not starving etc. Everyone needs to step back and treat this as any other report of abuse. If there’s no evidence to support the complaint, then it’s just based on the assumption because of the nature of the FLDS. I’m just saying , if this turns out to be a false report, then the state has caused more harm to the children by separating them from their mothers.

• Comment by: David H

  10 04/16/08 7:40 PM | Comment Link |

  Working for a newspaper in New Jersey I am fully aware of how bad child protective services can be. To be fair, most of the deaths attributed to our Division of Youth Services (sometimes nearly a dozen a year) were due to inadequate response to abuse situations in the birth home. But investigations by my newspaper and agencies such as the NJ Office of Child Advocacy found a disturbing lack of supervision and care for children in foster situations. OCA reports from 2004-2005 show that despite promises to improve documentation of medical care more than half the foster kids in DYFS care had “physicals” in emergency rooms and only about half the cases of medical examinations (from any source) produced any records about the health of the child. In 2006, the first death of the year for a child under DYFS supervision occurred in a foster home that had been in operation for years despite repeated reports of the caregiver’s drug-addicted biological children also living in the home. The child in question, age 2, died from ingesting methadone put in a closet by the caregiver’s youngest daughter. It was determined that it would have taken the child a significant amount of time to a) access the methadone and b) die from taking it. No emergency personnel or treatment was sought for the child until it was dead. New Jersey also hosted a foster case that received much attention when children from a home were picked up by police scavenging food from neighborhood trash cans. The case workers who made visits to the home on numerous occasions never felt they should be concerned that the refrigerator and cupboards in the foster home were all padlocked. The OCA, in its 2006 reports about DYFS noted that despite numerous efforts to reform, it (like similar agencies in multiple states) was having difficulty in its primary mission: protecting children.

  Randy is correct that media put a spotlight on the worst failures, but some might argue that is how it should be. More than a million airplane flights take place every day in the US. Few stories are written about all of the problem-free flights. Far more media scrutiny goes toward the infrequent failures. When an airplane crashes it may indicate there is something wrong with the system rather than just a random failure of a flying vehicle. When multiple children die under the supervision of DYFS in a single year, that may be perceived as multiple air crashes from a single airport. Thus excess media interest may force the hard examinations that lead to needed reform. In some cases, such as the state of New Jersey, not even the harsh glare of camera lights have achieved much progress.

  Most foster situations are probably better than the alternative, which is remaining in an abusive home with biological family. Removing children is a last resort in most cases. Often it is done as a life or health saving measure. So even though children obviously risk a lot of nasty things in foster care, the risk for them is almost certainly higher without it.

  As for the situation in Texas, Texas authorities claim they were aware through an informant of illegal activities for four years. They kept an eye on the ranch because the religious sect’s leader, Warren Jeffs (now serving a life-prison term for facilitating rape, also — based on his own writings — a racist), is an admitted advocate of underage marriage who has been accused of multiple counts of statutory rape and incest. But without probable cause they could only make periodic visits to the ranch where they were always denied the ability to interview anyone living there. The raid and removal of the children came after a 16-year-old called 911 and said she was raped and beaten by her 50-year-old husband. Allegedly, the 16-year-old girl’s husband, Dale Barlow, is a registered sex offender who pleaded no contest to having sex with a minor in Arizona. Reportedly, Texas law enforcement authorities asked ranch leaders to produce the girl and her “husband” and only entered when they were refused. They then identified 18 children who had been abused or were in danger of abuse. Speculation is that most of these were pregnant girls as young as age 13.

  According to information released by the state, among the children removed from the ranch was a 16-year-old mother of four children. Mothers were initially permitted to accompany all of the children, but today only mothers of children ager four and under were allowed to remain. A spokesman for the Texas child protection agency said they don’t usually allow parents to remain with their children in situations where there are allegations of abuse. There are several very good reasons for that.

  There is no certainty of conviction for the people behind this religious sect. Some legal scholars are saying the search warrant issued for the raid was too broad, which could cause much of the evidence collected to be thrown out of court. It also isn’t clear that a phone call from someone claiming to be at the ranch constitutes sufficient probable cause for the type of RAID conducted by Texas authorities. Should this case fail, all of the children are likely to be returned to the ranch and their parents.

  All the facts are not in, but based on my history I’m going to stand with the Texas authorities at this point. I know about the long-term affects of child abuse. I am personally acquainted with how long-term indoctrination affects one’s ability to make healthy decisions. And it is my personal belief that a religion that promotes middle-aged men having sex with 12-year-old girls is nothing more than pedophiles attempting to sanctify their evil acts. I was particularly appalled to learn that there is a bed in the Temple where the “spiritual” marriages are performed. Those who are married are required to consummate their marriage at the end of the ceremony.

  As for the word compound, I used to live near Larry Holmes in a suburb of Easton. His house was referred to as a compound (any separate cluster of homes, often owned by members of the same family). It was essentially multi-family living quarters (all his family and retinue) on a single parcel of land. The FLDS ranch in Texas certainly meets that criteria. The main living area also also has a surrounding fence. The fence may not have been intended to keep anything in or out. But it certainly makes that group living arrangement a compound.

• Comment by: Rachel

  11 04/16/08 7:54 PM | Comment Link |

  Perhaps a Mormon church that does not follow the sect practices that are illegal would be willing to sponsor such a thing. Families might feel a bit more confortable if they share some core beliefs rather than feeling as “on display” as they must feel right now.

  I think that is an excellent idea, Staci. I noticed on the television news that many of the mothers and children were being housed at a Baptist church. But surely there are number of mainstream Mormon churches that would be willing and able to assist these families and it seems that would be a more successful approach.

  Any mother who would let their young sons be sent away to make sure there were enough young girls unmarried for the old men is not a real mother.

  That’s an interesting bit of information, A real mother. I had always wondered how they managed to have so many more women than men!

  BTW, I commend for your loving service as a foster parent. We need more people like you!

  And it is my personal belief that a religion that promotes middle-aged men having sex with 12-year-old girls is nothing more than pedophiles attempting to sanctify their evil acts.

  I completely agree, David! As the mother of a 12-year old girl, I’m horrified at the thought of my child being subjected to such a thing.

• Comment by: Cal

  12 04/16/08 8:05 PM | Comment Link |

  Actually, there’s a big mistaken relationship between the two “religions” The FLDS are Mormons by their own definition, not by that of the LDS “church” of over 10 million members world wide.

• Comment by: Cal

  13 04/16/08 8:12 PM | Comment Link |

  David H,
  Thanks for the information, that helps to clarify. But I do think removing the “males” from the compound would’ve made more sense, because there’s room for them in jails, if not because they’re the perceived abusers, They (the males) should be the ones taken out and put under the media lights, not the children.

• Comment by: David H

  14 04/16/08 8:24 PM | Comment Link |

  But I do think removing the “males” from the compound would’ve made more sense, because there’s room for them in jails, if not because they’re the perceived abusers,

  On one level I agree with this. However, the reality is that they couldn’t arrest all of the men (they may not be able to immediately determine which have had sex with underage girls). Even those they do arrest could potentially make bail and return to the compound. Typically those “in danger” are removed from the “dangerous” place in order to get them into a safe environment.

  Also, in reading blog posts at other sites written by people who claim to have some association with this group, they make a case that many of the mothers are as guilty as the men. While they have been indoctrinated, they still choose to put their children into relationships that are abusive (mentally and sexually). Texas authorities are arguing that they had to remove the children and then separate them from the mothers in order to make sure the kids are in a safe place.

  I’m sure the situation is far from perfect. I have enough experience from my work with government and law enforcement to be fairly sure many mistakes will be made. But the Texas authorities do seem to be following the standard playbook for how to deal with situations like this. But the playbook was written for dealing with standard-size families, not those of 300-400 people.

• Comment by: Cal

  15 04/16/08 8:46 PM | Comment Link |

  I mostly agree with you David, this is an unique situation to say the least. But here’s a thought to ponder, what about the mothers that are victims of the same abuse that produced their children? Surely, if the allegations are true, this kind of abuse has been going on for generations, of course their generation gaps are much sorter than those outside of the compound.

• Comment by: David H

  16 04/16/08 9:04 PM | Comment Link |

  But here’s a thought to ponder, what about the mothers that are victims of the same abuse that produced their children?

  I grew up in an environment of indoctrination. Some of my siblings still model their lives on the indoctrination we received as children. I deeply understand the complexities of this situation and that many involved need help. My comment regarding the complicity of mothers was more to explain the rationale behind the Texas authorities in separating the children from both parents. My own mother is horrified by what she permitted to happen in her own house when we were children. I don’t hold it against her, but I can’t help but wonder how my life would be different had someone else taken me away from the situation I was in. My own mother wasn’t able to do that.

  What actually happened in Texas isn’t known at this point. It seems clear, but we may never know the whole story. There are many competing interests in this case and, especially given the number of children, an almost certainty that some will not end up in the best of circumstances no matter how all of this works out. For purely selfish reasons my sympathies are almost exclusively with the children. But I am also aware that they, like me and my siblings, probably don’t know what would be best for themselves. most probably pine to return to the parents who have hurt them. It took me decades to come to terms with that.

• Comment by: Benjamin Ady

  17 04/17/08 12:25 PM | Comment Link |

  Wanted to say thank you Randy, Daniel, Staci, Rachel, toughen up, Cal, a real mother, David, for all the great perspectives, and for keeping it respectful. You rock.

  In the community in which I grew up, CPS (Child protective services) was pretty much thought of as something like a rather evil corporation who always screwed up both ways: They failed to protect kids who actually needed protection, and they took children away from their homes wrongfully when they shouldn’t have.

  As in so many other areas, I’ve found that things are a lot more murky for me than they used to be.

  A real mother, I’d also like to say thank you for being a foster mom and standing up for your foster children. You rock! I bet the vast majority of foster parents in the country are kewl people like you, and I’m sorry I contributed to the popular and doubtless skewed image of the foster care system as a mostly broken system.

  Randy–I hear what you’re saying about how these *particular* kids may indeed be better off in foster care. Again, I think it’s a really tough call.

  This article helped me realize a couple things about the case:

  1. This *isn’t* really that unusual. It’s just made the news because of certain somewhat unique aspects of it. But in 2001, there were 542,000 children in the foster care system. Judges around the country have to make really hard decisions about child custody every single day, and I rather suspect that most of these judges are well informed about the general aspects of the situation, and are doing their best to make wise decisions.

  2. I don’t have to take on the weight of the decision that’s made by Judge Barbara Walthers. That’s her job. Instead, I think I’d like to let the situation’s prominence in the news drive me toward a little compassion closer to home. I shall make sure to continue to work toward being a kind, loving, time-spending, affirming dad for my two girls, and … perhaps I shall look into being a big brother (and/or big sister, for the ladies) to a child locally. Can one ask to be a big brother (or big sister) specifically for a child in foster care?

• Comment by: Doreen A Mannion

  18 04/22/08 4:09 PM | Comment Link |

  I’m trying to figure out what the FLDS situation has to do with a “gay scenario” (comment #4)…. Our government has raided African-American families before, and has certainly taken children from gay & lesbian families without reason.

  It is a horrific situation. In many respects, the mothers are as much victims as the children. It’s easy to think they are complicit, but they are obviously brainwashed. If you are at all familiar with the FLDS, you know how they treat male teenagers.

  I give the Texas authorities credit for trying to do something, considering the Arizona and Utah authorities (as well as Canadian) have let this child abuse go on and on, doing nothing.

  Local LDS families are visiting the children and remaining women, bringing them meals, praying with them, etc.

• Comment by: David H

  19 04/22/08 5:03 PM | Comment Link |

  Our government has raided African-American families before

  I was working at a daily newspaper after going to school in Philadelphia. As a result, I was very aware of the assault on the MOVE compound there. MOVE was a radical “back-to-nature” group that was predominantly (if not exclusively) black. The group had a commune style life in an under-privileged section of Philly and was constantly in conflict with city authorities over sanitation, care of children, etc. After a year-long stand-off a city police officer was killed attempting to enforce a court-order. That sparked a confrontation that culminated with police dropping a bomb on the roof of the MOVE building. The bomb started a fire that burned an entire city block. The group’s leader, John Africa, 6 adults and four children were killed in the fire. So under the right circumstances, the authorities will do what they deem necessary.

  On a different tangent, as part of my job I have been seeing pictures of women from the FLDS compound. Although much has been made of the dress style (reminiscent of pioneer garb), I was struck by the eerie similarity in the hair-styles. It struck me that they weren’t simply all going to the same stylist, but that somehow they were all trying to be the same person. Coupled with stories of treatment of boys and adolescent males in the group (treated as simple laborers and often sent out of the group after reaching sexual maturity) and it would seem that there is something extremely off there. All the women are carbon copies, many of the “husbands” are middle-aged men, and male off-spring are kept down or discarded once they become sexual “competition.” I would guess a psychologist would have a name for this potent and probably seriously deviant combination.

• Comment by: Benjamin

  20 04/22/08 10:36 PM | Comment Link |

  Local LDS families are visiting the children and remaining women, bringing them meals, praying with them, etc.

  Doreen–thank you for sharing. That is extremely kewl. I wanna be like that.

  David

  This is pretty much totally unrelated, but I visited a relatively … unusual church down in central California last year which was a … Mennonite Church of God, I think? Anyway, the guys and girls sat on the two different sides of the church, and they all looked like carbon copies as well. It was *really* strange, that. I mean they haircuts, the clothes, facial hair–all identical styles. All the ladies had identical black scarves covering their hair, tied in the identical way. Even the little girls. All the guys had identical shortish hair cuts, identical facial hair style, etc.

  I wasn’t able to go so far in my own mind as to label it spiritually abusive. What I did realize about the church after hanging out and talking with some of the guys for a while afterwards was that for the people in the church, most of them having grown up in it, the church *was* their entire community. And if they ever woke up one day to realize that they disagreed on any major doctrinal tenets, they were definitely going to have to choose between pretending they still agreed or losing their entire community via … something very akin to excommunication.

  Having experienced something a lot less drastic (excommunication lite?) on at least one occasion, I know that must be just super-traumatic. So much pain in the world.

  I’m so glad Doreen shared the uplifting comment. That totally makes my day.

• Comment by: Doreen A Mannion

  21 04/23/08 10:35 AM | Comment Link |

  David, the MOVE group is the exact situation I was refering to. Thank you for bringing out the specifics.

  re: the similarities in dress, hair, etc. This does not bother me; consider the Amish. In fact, Paul’s admonishment to Corinthian women to keep their hair covered can be interpreted as a way to keep all equal. The wealthy women could afford to have fancy hairdo’s, thereby “one-uping” the less wealthy. When all wear hair up and covered, all appear equal.

  Now, when the FLDS women all start saying the exact same words, THAT scares me!

• Comment by: David H

  22 04/23/08 8:53 PM | Comment Link |

  I wasn’t able to go so far in my own mind as to label it spiritually abusive. What I did realize about the church after hanging out and talking with some of the guys for a while afterwards was that for the people in the church, most of them having grown up in it, the church *was* their entire community. And if they ever woke up one day to realize that they disagreed on any major doctrinal tenets, they were definitely going to have to choose between pretending they still agreed or losing their entire community via … something very akin to excommunication.

  I’m not a Mennonite, I don’t even play one on Sundays. But I do attend a Mennonite church and have some familiarity with the various flavors (Amish vs. Old Order vs. the more moderate variant of my church). I understand the reasoning behind some of the more conservative Mennonite and Amish practices. While the idea of avoiding temptation and focusing on simplicity is good, the methods for pursuing those goals have been (at times) counter-productive. Mennonite churches have had conflict over shirt buttons, chrome bumpers and flat vs glossy paint. The Amish lose many of their children to the world because, at least in part, of its enticing variety. Straying too far from the rather rigid dress and conduct codes of these groups can lead to shunning, which in the best possible interpretation is a loving way to bring them back into the group. In it’s worst light it is a harsh way of saying conform or get out.

  There can be debate about simplicity vs conformity; emphasis on the group over the individual. My personal attraction to the Mennonites have more to do with their emphasis on service (faith and works can’t be separated) and pacifism. But in the area of dress and stringent morality, there may be some surface similarities between the stricter anabaptist groups and the FLDS. But it isn’t just the moral code (at the FLDS it includes no TV, only books or music or movies or clothing approved by the prophet, and no talking to the girls in the group) or the uniformity of appearance that makes me think there is a psychological pathology at work with the FLDS.

  Shunning in the anabaptist groups, while a harsh action IMO, is always preceded by an opportunity for the “offender” to speak and repent. At the FLDS excommunication, according to numerous reports, can come without notification. According to accounts referenced here:

  Some of the boys have simply been told to leave their families and the world they have always known. Some fled the overly controlling environment on their own. While others were removed from their home in the middle of the night to be left in the desert with nothing but the clothes on their back and the lasting belief that they are going to hell because they have done something so terrible that they were excommunicated from their community.

  Based on the accounts I have found, the vast majority of those excommunicated from the FLDS are teenaged boys.

  To recap those things that lead me to believe there is a psychological pathology at work here:
  1. Isolation and conformity
  2. Casting out of those who do not meet standards.
  3. The vast majority of those cast out are teenage boys who are abandoned in every sense of the word.

  Then let’s add in the beliefs that multiple marriages are the gateway to heaven (maybe not a biggie on its own) with the belief that a girl should be forced into marriage as soon as she can bear children. Finish that off with the apparent acceptance of forced marriage to close relatives (I know the Mennonites and Amish tend to marry within their communities, but some first person accounts from people who have left FLDS say fathers will sometimes “marry” their own daughters).

  As almost an afterthought, former FLDS members say FLDS has an organized eugenics program where children are bred for blonde or red hair because it proves there is no black blood in them. While science, they say, is virtually banned from the homeschool curriculum, children are taught from the beginning the black people are how evil enters the world and were designed by God to be slaves. Likewise Jews are meant to be punished for killing Christ.

  Most of these beliefs could be excused on their own (notable exception for the racism), but when put together they add up to an indication of something seriously out of whack in my non-expert opinion. The combination of these things takes FLDS from a group with beliefs outside my comfort zone into the realm of dangerous deviance.

  When I was in college I read “Mere Christianity” for the first time. C.S. Lewis posits human morality as evidence of God in that book. When I re-read the book a few years ago I found myself doubting Lewis’ logic. My own personal experience had taught me that some people can be taught to believe something wrong is right. Taboos like incest and cannibalism have been elevated in some societies as have thievery, murder and lying. A key ingredient in most of those situations seems to be the sense of those groups that they were better than everyone else. Such entitlement allows them to set up their own system of right and wrong.

  Maybe there is no such thing as universal morality. Maybe God hasn’t set absolutes of right and wrong as evidence he exists. But when faced with the activities being reported regarding FLDS I find myself in rebellion. To accept the possibility that I simply disagree with their activities is to allow that it may be OK for fathers to do terrible things to their children as long as that is accepted by the group in which they operate. Perhaps it is an indication of a personal limitation, but I simply can’t flex that far.

• Comment by: benjamin ady

  23 04/24/08 2:18 PM | Comment Link |

  but I simply can’t flex that far

  David,

  I’m pretty much totally with you on everything you’re saying. But this last line instantly called to mind Tevye’s “If I try to bend that far, I’ll break”

  Part of me insists “NO! NO! David’s words and Tevye’s words are about vastly different situations.”

• Comment by: Doreen A Mannion

  24 04/25/08 9:40 AM | Comment Link |

  Let’s not forget that it was not that long ago (1978) that African-Americans were permitted full priesthood in the LDS church. So, the FDLS apples don’t fall far from the tree in that regard….

• Comment by: Helen

  25 04/25/08 10:49 AM | Comment Link |

  I haven’t commented because I don’t feel I know enough about the situation to have an opinion what’s best.

  Yesterday they mentioned this on the news and said they’ve now removed 460 or so children - wow, that’s a lot of children.

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